It’s Just Vibes: A Conversation on Creativity and Culture

Shannon O’Grady: ASMR then? Yeah.

Heather Riexinger: Yeah, you got to do this. OK. Are we running then? I’m done. Unfortunately, yes. All right. Well, welcome back to The Flynn Effect. Today, we have a first time visitor, Shannon O’Grady. Thank you for joining me. Yeah, any time. I know. I forced you to come here. So we understand that. But Shannon, you are a senior art director on our team. You’ve been here quite a while now. We all think that you are a rising star, recent up and comer award winner. So really, I always enjoy your fresh perspective on creative. So I would love to just chat today a little bit about your take on creative, what’s going on in the world, what you’re seeing that you love. And then we’re bringing back, because Paul did Bean Boozled. You volunteered for this, which is really odd, because I thought I’d have to convince someone else to do this. So I’m excited to see how this goes. I’m excited to see how I do. We’ll see. So first, to start off, you’ve been doing this, what, five, six years now. You’ve been here at Flynn. A lot has changed even in that time. And obviously, everything we’re talking about on this podcast just talked last week with Kristin about AI and synthetic audiences and everything there. And I know that’s a big piece of what you’re doing. But want to kind of just get back to the basics of creative. What are you seeing out there right now that’s good, that’s really working? And why?

Shannon O’Grady: It’s funny that you say AI, because I honestly kind of see the opposite working. And I’ve talked about this, honestly, recently with a lot of staff members. But the idea that because we’re so flooded with AI now, anything hand done or human just feels a little bit more special. So the creative that works is the one that you can see had a human hand in it. So whether that be by proving it with behind the scenes and showing what you did to get to that endpoint or by just making it very obviously human and less digital, maybe a little imperfect, that tends to catch my eye a little bit more, especially when you start to bring in illustrators and artists and folks that are used to working in a less digital space. It just starts to feel a little more unique. I think print is making a comeback also because of that.

Heather Riexinger: You know I love print.

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah, you can feel it. It’s special. We don’t always get these moments where you get something really nice in the mail and you can feel the textures and you can see the foil. That is starting to become more and more unique experience. So it does stand out more. Kind of loving that AI has kind of pushed us a little towards the human touch as well.

Heather Riexinger: Yeah, it’s kind of like the original art is being appreciated a little more than it had been. So that’s great. Are there any campaigns that you’ve seen recently or brands that you think are just killing it?

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah, I mean we always talk about Airbnb. I think they’re consistently doing a great job of keeping not only a unique message, but also their brand at the forefront. I don’t know if you’ve gotten these ads. I’ve gotten a lot of the ads of showing what happens when two cultures meet and it talks about the world coming together and meeting. So I think that’s been super impactful. I’ve seen it a lot on my algorithm. I don’t know if it’s just encouraging me to travel or what, but it’s a really nice take and especially in a time where I think people feel very divided. Talking about what brings people together is just a really nice insight and it just feels warm. So Airbnb does a great job. We were just talking about FIFA as well, bringing together a bunch of artists to create posters for the cities where FIFA is playing. And how nice because again, it brings us back to this local touch and you get to see art that’s going on around the world or around at least in the cities that they’re in. In the cities that they play in the Americas. But I think that’s also a really lovely way to not only show off artists, but to really kind of get that little bit of insight into individual cities where people feel camaraderie and they feel closeness.

Heather Riexinger: Agreed, I’m loving all the FIFA. And another one that I loved was the Lays campaign around FIFA, which leaned into the insight that nobody really has a soccer team that they’re devoted to in the US. We’re all a little more football-centric and die hard to that. So it was really interesting. They did a thing around bandwagon fans and I just thought it was so funny to jump on the bandwagon because those of us who are very into sports are watching soccer now. I don’t even understand soccer fully, but I’m like, oh, there’s something interesting on and I’m going to cheer for some random team that I really don’t care about, but it is fun. I love bandwagons.

Shannon O’Grady: I think they’re great. I don’t watch basketball, but like go Knicks. I don’t know. It’s out of my category, but I wanna feel a part of what this big thing that’s happening, so yeah, definitely. Love a good underdog story.

Heather Riexinger: Yeah. Great. So you talked a little bit about seeing the human touch and the creative. So what I always find very interesting is seeing the human touch behind AI creative. So talked a little bit about Kristin with Kristin on the podcast and how she incorporates strategy and insight and brings that into the creative our AI synthetic audiences tools. How do you incorporate strategy and insight and show that human touch when you are developing something in AI or a campaign that you’ve seen that’s AI, but it’s very clear that human brains were behind the thought and the concept?

Shannon O’Grady: I think that’s just it, is the concept itself. So you may be using visuals that are AI driven or you may be using voices or whatever it may be that’s AI driven, but that concept, even if you get little sparks of ideas from AI has to be something that was somewhat human because if not, it’s just kind of a mix of everything else that’s out there. So I think concept driven by humans and then using AI to assist and aid in that is the only way to go. I do think it’s interesting, especially in video production where you see someone just throw, you can tell when someone’s just thrown a prompt into AI and the video creates it. It may be realistic, but it’s not really selling anything because there’s no idea, there’s no insight and I’ve seen it 800 times. So I think using those human insights to drive what you’re creating visually or being aided by AI is what’s working.

Heather Riexinger: Great, so kind of shifting gears. So we’re talking about strategic creative and insightful creative. One of my favorite things to do is send you ridiculous TikToks because you are one of the only people in the office that actually enjoys them. I think everyone else just doesn’t understand the chaos in my brain. So talk a little bit about what you’re seeing in like the TikTok world where some of these brands are just like shitposting or whatever we wanna call it where it’s just complete chaos, but we are so attached to it. And I think of the sponges, Daddy, whatever, it’s Scrub Daddy. But I actually bought Scrub Daddy sponges because of their weirdness that makes me laugh. So what are you seeing and what are you thinking?

Shannon O’Grady: I think it works when it’s authentic to the brand. There are some people that will try it and it’s like, oh, nope, that was a fail, Gramps. Like it’s not gonna work. But yeah, the Scrub Daddy, great. It’s hilarious. It’s just funny and stupid. And it’s, I don’t know. To me, it reminds me of when you’re home, you sit down on the couch and you’re like, I cannot deal with an intense documentary or movie right now. I just need my go-to show. I’m gonna watch The Office for the 800th time because I just need my brain to kind of turn off. I think that’s sort of the fun and the pleasantness of shitposting. Like you see the Buffalo Bills account and they’ve got some of the dumbest stuff you’ve ever seen, but it makes you laugh. Britta’s another one where we’ve been the, the drink from the Buddha thing. Like, okay, what is happening? Why is there a cat dancing? I don’t know, but I can turn my brain off. I can laugh at really dumb stuff. And it’s just, it is a moment of just like release. You’re just like, this is funny. This is lighthearted. And I think with a lot of things feeling so intense all the time, it’s nice to just have a little bit of dumb shit.

Heather Riexinger: Like really, it is. Well, and I love both Britta and Scrub Daddy, from a strategy perspective, incorporate the product into everything they’re doing. So it works, but yeah, I think there’s a lot of interesting things there. So what are you seeing as someone who is kind of chronically online like I am with TikTok and things? Are you seeing anything interesting in terms of like influencer marketing or like the new trends?

Shannon O’Grady: You know, I think honesty, I don’t know if it’s a new trend necessarily, but I personally, and I think a lot of audience members that are specifically on the younger side, millennials, Gen Z, we know when we’re being sold to. So just tell us that we’re being sold to. So the blatant honesty is like, hey, these guys sponsored me. Let me try it out and you see what you think. I think that is really refreshing. It’s been a bit of a trend for a while now. I think people are coming to terms with the idea that the audience isn’t stupid. We know that they’re paying you. We can see that this is happening. But I think that side of things is really important, just treating the audience like they’re people and intelligent and can understand what’s happening. So I personally love when people are like, hey, I got sponsored. I get to try out a bunch of new products that this brand sent me. That was so nice of them. Let’s see how it goes. All cards on the table right up front. Love that, love that.

Heather Riexinger: So we’re talking about really fun brands and we get to work on a lot of really fun brands, but we do tend to work in highly regulated spaces, in financial services, in healthcare. And how do you incorporate fun and insightful messaging and visuals into industries that tend to be a little bit more compliance driven?

Shannon O’Grady: Serious brands. I think it’s a balance because you don’t wanna make light of some things that we’re working in important industries like finance and insurance and medical healthcare. So you can’t make things overly light, but I think it’s a balance of sticking within the brand and also understanding your audience. I’ve had this conversation a million times is sometimes we are selling products to doctors to help them better equip themselves for their patients. And when you think of selling to a doctor, you’re like, wow, serious, serious, serious medical facts. And that’s true. They are looking for facts, but they’re still human. They still have inside jokes and they still have these moments in life where they’re a little bit frustrated. So they still have these emotions. So being able to identify the human element of someone in a space that may be a little more in a box is always helpful. A doctor does get frustrated for their patients. They do understand that it takes an emotional toll on not only their patients, but themselves. And so if there’s a tool that can better help them to serve the people that they’re serving, to make their life easier, to open up the longevity of their career because it’s making the physical tasks easier, like play on those emotions, they’re human. It can make for something interesting and fun and impactful without being just, this is the best, here’s why,

Heather Riexinger: technical. Right, right. And we say this a lot here in terms of like humor or lightness that it’s kind of more of a smirk or a smile than a laugh out loud. And we work in some spaces where you could go like men’s prostate health, where you could get really kind of off the wall, but that’s not what a man wants to see when talking about procedures or learning about that. So we need to balance the humor and the lightness with, like you said, the seriousness of what we’re speaking about.

Shannon O’Grady: And prostate cancer is an interesting one because I think with prostate health in general, there’s a lot of taboos. So it is a mix of, okay, maybe you need a little humor to break it down, to make it feel more comfortable, to make that a topic of conversation that, I think we often talk about breast cancer very, very openly, but prostate cancer comes with some taboos that make people feel uncomfortable. They shouldn’t, it’s a common thing. It’s something we should talk about, something we should be able to aid in. But those are situations where that balance is really, really fine because it is a serious condition, but we do wanna be open and lighthearted and maybe have a little fun with it just so that we can make people feel comfortable and confident speaking towards it. So again, it is a very fine line to balance. And I think finding that line is all about talking to people because what I might think is appropriate, someone else might not. So really opening up your concepting group to make sure that, hey, we’re covering all our bases. This is something that is funny, but not pushing the line too far.

Heather Riexinger: Right, and we do a lot of research here. We use synthetic audiences, we use real humans, we do focus groups, quant studies. And I think that that’s so important when it comes to these categories as well, because we have men here who are 50 plus, but we can’t use one person’s perspective or one person’s experience to talk to an entire audience. So I think that that’s a really interesting use, especially when we start to get into humor in serious categories is how is it gonna hit with doctors and men? Yeah. So great. Okay, well, you’ve been doing this now, like we said, six years. Any advice for new creatives? And you’re kind of like an expert now. So we’re in July now, kids coming out of school, what advice would you give them as they’re starting out in the creative world?

Shannon O’Grady: I think a couple of things. I think one, be annoying, be super annoying. Obviously, you’re coming out of college, you have the skill set. I think the skill set that’s not always taught in especially design or creative degrees is the skill set of networking, connecting, and legitimately getting a job. You will probably apply a lot of places that’s okay, keep your head up. But be annoying, call people, ask someone for a portfolio review. Ask someone if you can shadow for them. Ask, it may feel annoying, do it. Talk to people, talk to a million people, find a million email addresses, and just do it because it’s better to be annoying than to not be able to find the best opportunity. I think also beyond that is shape your portfolio for what you wanna do. If you are someone who really, really wants to work in a specific industry, or I really wanna do branding, I really wanna do motion graphics, put that work in your portfolio because that’s what we see, that’s what excites us. And if we’re seeing that you can do that work, that’s the work we’re gonna give you once you are hired. So I think put what you love in your portfolio because it does make a difference and be super annoying. Just do it. It sucks, be annoying.

Heather Riexinger: It is interesting because sometimes, I’ll see resumes come through and they are, it can get annoying, but I will say I usually click on the link. So if someone sends a resume through, I look at it, I will look at the portfolio and a lot of times, be impressed and we may not be hiring, but it’s something that we file away. So we are looking at what people are sending. So like you said, get it out there. And you might find someone at the right time that hasn’t even posted a job yet.

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah, and honestly, that’s I think one of the bigger things is like ask someone else for coffee for advice. Who doesn’t love when you pay for a coffee for them or just when you flatter them by saying like, “Hey, you’re a great designer. “I’d love to grab a coffee and pick your brain.” You don’t have to be outwardly like looking for a job, but that’s a new connection you have. That’s someone in the industry that may know four other places looking to hire. So those little tiny things and getting to like really meet people and push for that, it works. I hate being annoying, but it is. Yeah, it is. You gotta do what you gotta do, I don’t know.

Heather Riexinger: Yeah, I know, so good. Okay, well, on to the star of the show, Be Boozled. So would love to do just kind of a rapid fire with you. I did this with Paul, your little partner in crime upstairs a few weeks ago. So just want like quick gut reactions to some different questions here on creative and how you approach it. So let’s take a jelly bean here and see how it works. We just grab anyone. Just grab one.

Shannon O’Grady: I feel like pink feels safe, right? Is that a bad idea?

Heather Riexinger: It’s just cute. It’s cute. Okay, throw it in there. I have to eat while answering this?

Shannon O’Grady: Yes. Oh Lord, I didn’t realize that’s what he did. So you gotta chew it. Okay.

Heather Riexinger: And then give me one word to describe great creative. Oh my God, a great idea. That tastes really bad. Yeah, yeah, oh great. I don’t even know which one you got, but. It tastes like brie cheese and toes. Brie cheese and toes? Yeah. Awesome, well, that’s appealing. Right. An overused design trend right now.

Shannon O’Grady: I’m gonna say 90s nostalgia. I feel like that’s, honestly, I love it in a lot of ways, but I think we’ve seen it a lot.

Heather Riexinger: It’s starting to get a little old now. Most underrated creative element, copy, color, layout, et cetera. What is the most underused? Underused? Underrated, I should say.

Shannon O’Grady: I hate to say this because I’m designed with copy. Like working with good copy just makes things so much better. And typically you’re not flooding a layout with too much information because you have a copywriter that knows what they’re doing. So good copy, 100%.

Heather Riexinger: I’m sure that inspires your design though too, when you have good copy, it inspires good design.

Shannon O’Grady: It does, it lends you to be able to have good design. Because good copy could be one word that my visual now aids and creates something to actually make an impact. But I think working with good copy, especially because it’s not the highest on my skill sets compared to our copywriters. So being able to work with something established is great. All right.

Heather Riexinger: Do I just keep going? You can keep going. Oh yeah. All right. Brown feels less safe, but we’re gonna do it. I don’t know, pink felt safe.

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah, I thought so too.

Heather Riexinger: Okay. Instagram or LinkedIn for inspiration? Oh, Instagram. Yeah, I mean, you’re a designer.

Shannon O’Grady: That makes so much more sense. LinkedIn’s okay, but I feel like there’s more slop on my LinkedIn algorithm versus my Instagram algorithm is curated.

Heather Riexinger: Perfect. How about Instagram versus TikTok? That’s a good one, by the way.

Shannon O’Grady: I’m still millennial, so I’m gonna say Instagram. I’m like a TikTok stalker. So I don’t post, I don’t do too much following other than little, but I’m more of a stalker on TikTok.

Heather Riexinger: Me too, I don’t post. No one wants to listen to me. Nope. Ooh, this one’s a risky one. What’s one thing that clients care too much about that doesn’t matter to you as much?

Shannon O’Grady: Trends. Interesting, so tell me a little more about that. I think sometimes clients care about being on the trend, which is good, it’s important, but trends are so fading right now. And really good creative is something that not only shows the brand, but demonstrates and communicates really well, and sometimes those trends just don’t work for it, they’re not your voice, they’re not in your brand. So it’s great to stay on trend to some extent, but I think that is maybe more of your social media manager’s position and your marketing position should be something that establishes your brand very well.

Heather Riexinger: Great, love that. Another bean? Oh God, yeah.

Shannon O’Grady: The last one was good, it was coffee I think, so.

Heather Riexinger: Oh, okay. What’s one thing that you think clients– I don’t know if I can do that one. Oh, what’s one thing that you think clients don’t pay enough attention to or don’t care enough about? It’s really hard to think when you’re thinking about it. Yeah, that’s the whole fun of this, is you can’t really think, you’re just off the cuff. Well, they don’t pay attention to? So we just said, what’s one thing that they care a little too much about sometimes? What’s one thing that you wish they cared a little more about sometimes?

Shannon O’Grady: I don’t wanna sound mean, but speaking to their audiences rather than speaking to themselves. So creative that resonates with your audience, not just creative that resonates with yourself, which I think is hard for everyone. I wanna create stuff that I like, but I’m also not a 62 plus year old with a looking for a HELOC or a, you know. So I think really keeping in mind that your, who your audience is, what is working for them and not just the things that you want to see, which yeah, I think we all have a hard time with because.

Heather Riexinger: I tell a story all the time about probably six, seven years ago, we were working on some golf ball packaging. And I tried to kill a concept internally that I just did not like at all. And as a female golfer, I was like, well, I’m, you know, but I had to take a step back and say like, I am not every female golfer. And honestly, the concept that I disliked the most was the one that went to market and it did so well. And I’m really glad it did well, but it was very hard for me as we were going through it. You know, I’m like, I just don’t think, I don’t know. It’s just not, and had to listen to the data and had to listen to the audience. So I do think it, you know, I fall into that trap a lot.

Shannon O’Grady: I’ve had the same experience. And I think this is why audience research is so important because I will put some concepts out there, you know, be like, this is definitely the winner. Like this is going to do better. It’s amazing. And I believe the last time we did that, the one I thought was like, this is gonna come out on top. Came out on bottom. But that’s why you do research because you don’t know. You don’t know these little instances or these little things that might tweak a concept. So being able to do audience research, whether it be through, you know, a bunch of small meta-ad tests or actually being able to talk to your audience, it makes a huge difference.

Heather Riexinger: Yeah. And I think another important thing too is just the gut. There is that gut aspect of it though, where sometimes there are instances where the research is telling you one thing or, you know, you’re speaking to the audience and they’re saying one thing and it’s like, hey, we’ve been doing this. And I’ve seen it be effective or, you know, we did this campaign a while ago that really worked. And sometimes you just have to take that chance and jump. And sometimes it’s successful. Sometimes it’s not. But I always say, that’s how you break out is if you want something really impactful and effective, sometimes you have to go beyond what your data

Shannon O’Grady: is exactly telling you. Yeah. I mean, when you have that expertise, you do have, you gain an understanding over time of what is gonna work, what isn’t gonna work. And again, if you work on, that’s the next thing I think about having really long-term clients is you do get to know their audience and what’s working for them and what’s not. So it does give you a better gut check as time goes on.

Heather Riexinger: Right. And I think a lot of our clients too that have been doing this forever, you know, they bring a lot of insight of, this all makes sense, but we tried it five years ago and it didn’t work. Or can we tweak it slightly? Or was the market diff, obviously the market was different five years ago. We were just coming out of COVID, but there is a lot going on there and collaboration and things like that. So it’s always so interesting. Yeah. There’s a lot of paths that can be taken. Okay. What’s your favorite type of project to work on?

Shannon O’Grady: Oh, I think anything where you get to build a system. So brands are lovely for this because you get to build a system that can really extend and you can see how you can use it in future use. That’s a good one. I think it’s mint, I don’t know. Okay. So anything where you get to build a system and really get to see it follow through. So I think branding is great for that. You build and establish a voice, a tone, a look that you can now extend into different pieces, different social, video, whatever it may be. Web is also great for that because again, you’re establishing a system usually with components that are gonna be reused and patterns that are gonna be reused throughout it. So getting to think through and troubleshoot upfront, not just what I’m going to be working with, but how this affects the journey, who the user is. I think that’s always super interesting. Again, you get to really know the audience well because you’re thinking about them constantly. Right.

Heather Riexinger: Least favorite part of the process.

Shannon O’Grady: Waiting for results, I think.

Heather Riexinger: No, I feel like that is, it launches and then you wanna know immediately.

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah, and results take a long time, usually like to get solid results. So you create something, a couple months later, you can usually kind of get a sense of how it’s doing, but I think that limbo is a little like, you have this go, go, go, up, up, up, and then all of a sudden it’s done and it’s, oh, okay, but like, and so that waiting for results can be a

Heather Riexinger: little less fun. Yeah, and a lot of our clients too, it’s a long sales cycle, so we don’t have results. You don’t start to see them for even six months or a year or sales may not, and you may not see that full impact of the sales, and so that’s always like nerve-wracking. Okay, last jelly bean. Concept first or design first? Concept first, 100%. Clean and minimal or bold and loud?

Shannon O’Grady: Mm, both, I think clean and minimal. Minimal is what I lean towards. Again, talking about extensions, it extends well.

Heather Riexinger: I’ve got two more that we’ll throw in here. What’s something that junior creatives overthink? Jelly bean flavors? Oh my God, that’s fish for sure.

Shannon O’Grady: Oh, gross. Junior creatives overthink, I think, I hate to say this because it is important, but perfection, especially in what you’re doing. So if we’re doing social really, really, really, really, really quick, it needs to be technically great, it needs to have a good idea. There are important factors to it, but you can’t nudge it for five days because it needs to be out yesterday. So I think sometimes you really wanna do a great job, which you should, and you’ll get better at doing that quicker as you go on, but sometimes the creative just needs to go out into a world where it’s gonna disappear in two days anyway. If it’s a story or if it’s a, they’re quick, they live in a world where it’s quick, so don’t overthink it.

Heather Riexinger: And then on the opposite side, so what’s something that senior creatives might overcomplicate? Oh, that’s a good question. Paul’s listening, he’s gonna watch.

Shannon O’Grady: Paul’s not a senior creative, he’s a young fellow. We all know this. Seniors and creatives overthink. I feel like this is gonna be insulting if I say it. No. I think sometimes whether or not people will understand it. So it’s easy for us to just keep adding words and keep explaining and keep pushing when in reality, like I said, our audiences aren’t dumb. You do need to clearly communicate. It is visual communication. That’s what it’s called for a reason because it does need to be clear, but I think a good example is we all remember that Super Bowl ad with the QR code. You would look at that and say, it’s not communicating anything, but to me, that is very clearly without words communicating exactly what I should do. I know my next step. I know the call to action in that moment is to scan the QR code. And so I think sometimes minimizing clutter and giving our audience credit for what they do now.

Heather Riexinger: I think that’s a good one. I don’t think that that’s insulting. I hope not. I think too, it’s interesting as someone who’s been doing this for maybe 20 years. It used to be to your previous point, everything was out and it had longevity and it would live forever. And so we wanted it to be perfect and we wanted every little piece of it to make sense. And can we fit everything that we need to say in there and to your point, a lot of stuff now lives for two days and then it’s gone. And that’s really a hard shift to make and to also we have pieces that are both. So to your system comment, within a system, you may have a TV spot that is running or a website that is running forever. And in the meantime, you’re creating posts along that same system that just live for a day and it’s tough.

Shannon O’Grady: Yeah, it is balanced because again, we’re here to do great work, but we also have to do it quickly and understand that it needs to get out. So again, everything, I think I’ve said balance like 800 times. That’s just balance, man.

Heather Riexinger: It’s just, it is what it is. This is why I love working with you, it’s just vibes. It’s just vibes, it’s balance. Everything’s gonna be fun, everything’s good. Everything’s great. Well, anything else you’d wanna talk about for creative or any insight you wanna release to the audience? Oh, insights, I love that.

Shannon O’Grady: God, good question. I guess I think my only thing to say is it’s gonna be fine. Everything’s gonna be fine. I think right now we live in a weird in between where it’s, am I keeping up enough on this new tool? Am I getting stuff out fast enough? Am I getting things done well enough? Am I, you know, we’re constantly questioning and it’ll be fine. Things are gonna even out, especially when it comes to AI. I know people are really concerned about keeping up on the tools, but the thing is they’re getting easier. That’s the whole goal is user-friendliness. So you can learn the intricacies and that’s great, but at some point they’re just gonna become more accessible to folks who don’t know the intricacies. So you’re not falling behind, you’re doing great, it’s gonna be fine. And the world changes, so keeping up as much as we can, but also understanding that there is a genuine route to design and to advertising and to, you know, copywriting that always stays true. It’s human, there’s emotion in it. That’s all going to stay the same. It’s just the tools may shift and change a little bit.

Heather Riexinger: Perfect. Well, thank you for joining me. Thank you for participating in the gross. Not, it’s okay. You didn’t get too bad. I made it a couple of faces. Paul had to like stop talking