Dr.Rick, Cat Videos, and Using Insights to Sell the “Why”

Katie Flynn: Welcome to The Flynn Effect podcast, where we dive deep into all things culture, industry news, and history, all with the goal of helping our clients perform better. Hi Pete. Welcome to the podcast.

Pete VonDerLinn: Great to be here.

Katie Flynn: Thank you so much for joining me. Um, we’re going to talk about the, the sort of fun side of what we do here, which is the creative stuff. And I think everything that we do is, is fun, but the creative stuff is like a little more objective. Fun, right. Exactly. And specifically I want to talk to you about insight driven campaigns today, because when you joined us, six, five and a half, five and a half years ago now, it was something that we talked a lot about was making sure that for those campaigns or those projects that, you know, had the appropriate budget and timelines and all of those things that being insight driven makes the work so much better. Um, so yeah, can you just talk a little bit about, you know, as a, as a CD, like why you value that.

Pete VonDerLinn: Oh, sure. Um, I think it’s the most important tool we have to get into the hearts and minds of our audience. And that’s the number one job as creatives. We’re trying to find some way to pull an emotional trigger to get someone to say, whatever I just saw before my eyes is really making me love what that brand is, is telling me, and that’s not going to come from just spinning, you know, product benefits out. Sure. You got to find something that hits here. And insight is the way into that, into that heart.

Katie Flynn: Yeah. That makes total sense. I know I’ve had that conversation with clients to have like, we’re not really selling the what it’s not necessarily about the service or the features or whatever we’re selling the why, like what’s the transformational benefit of whatever the thing is that we’re putting in front of them. Um, and it seems like insights just help that much more in terms of getting to something that’s really unique and has staying power and stopping power to your point. Um, I’m curious. What is your favorite insight driven campaign that we’ve done here at Flynn?

Pete VonDerLinn: Easy because, uh, I love the work and I’m a golfer. So top flight golf is by far my, my number one. I also just love it because like I’ve golf for over 40 years. And when we’re diving into that project, you know, still knowing the game really well and being a pretty average golfer, uh, really had no clue like how we’re going to get sales back up and sales were not where they wanted them to be with top flight. So loved the old school focus group, which is what we did. And I think we had five or six groups of mid handicap, high handicap golfers come in and just talk to them about like, why are you playing top flight? What are your perceptions of top flight? It wasn’t great. And also we’re like, wow, we really have our work cut out for us. But it’s always that thing where, you know, you’re listening to hours and hours of people talk, and then it’s like that one little nugget. And you go, wait a minute, we can do something with that. And that’s super exciting. And that nugget was someone’s mentioning that whenever they play golf, they’re cranking music and it’s like rock and roll and you know, they’re drinking beers. And it’s really not about the score. It’s about the camaraderie with their friends. And, and even though that wasn’t said amongst a group, like consistently, like tell that was like the vibe of the group. And then we knew we were onto something and that led to this rock and roll golf strategy, which was super out there for the category. And that’s where it gets really fun for us, right? As we’re doing something in a category that’s different than it’s ever really been done. And then brought that to Dicks Boring Goods and CEO walks in. And of course we were advised you might want to have a safer one just in case. And, you know, I was like, that one, love the rock and roll golf. That’s going to go bananas. And it did. Yeah. Sales went up over 20%. Now packaging with guys doing air guitar and big amplifier displays and exporting goods and a little Easter egg for Spinal Tap, which is the volume up to 11, which for people my age, we love those. We love a little references, Spinal Tap here and there. We can work that in. That’s a victory for yourself.

Katie Flynn: Yeah.

Pete VonDerLinn: But that, that’s by far is, is my favorite. When I saw that on the shelf at Dicks, I just would just kind of like a big victory.

Katie Flynn: Like, yes, we did it. Yeah.

Pete VonDerLinn: Change the category.

Katie Flynn: For sure. And it’s great work. And it also, I think, coincided, coincided. Is that it?

Pete VonDerLinn: Coincided is a word.

Katie Flynn: Coincided. I’m like, that doesn’t sound right. With a little bit of a shift in the culture around golf, right? Because COVID made it so that golf was kind of this more casual hobby that people were able to do and get outside and not be around other people because you’re sort of naturally social distanced.

Pete VonDerLinn: Yeah.

Katie Flynn: And I think it, it became a little bit more social even outside of people who were already super into golf. Like I had a ton of friends who took it up during that period and were definitely more of the like, yeah, we’re having a few drinks on the course, not necessarily like I’m trying to get my handicap as low as possible.

Pete VonDerLinn: And sometimes, you know, sometimes you get a little lucky too, right? I think because there were a lot of people coming, beginners coming into the game and, you know, they wanted an entry level ball to play with. That probably helped as well. But I think we did a nice job in saying you don’t have to be, you know, the country club type walking on and being great. And it opened some doors for people to know, like, if I’m going to start out, that’s going to be the ball that I’m going to start out with.

Katie Flynn: Absolutely. No, that makes total sense. Yeah. And, you know, I know you’ve shared with the staff at Lunch and Learns or, you know, in department meetings, lots of other campaigns out there that do a really great job of tapping into an insight. Are there examples out there that, you know, that we didn’t do, but that are really great examples of insight driven work?

Pete VonDerLinn: Yeah, there’s a lot. I’ll keep it in the categories that we spend most of our time in, like insurance, financial, health care. I’m always on the lookout for more of that type of stuff. I think those are the categories where it’s frankly a little bit harder sometimes and also more necessary to have an insight because those types of brands can tend to not be the ones that people think about too often.

Katie Flynn: Right.

Pete VonDerLinn: And I would say the one that I’m ultra jealous of every time I watch it is the Dr. Rick campaign for Progressive.

Katie Flynn: Yes.

Pete VonDerLinn: And it was interesting when I saw it the first time, my first reaction was, wow, they’re not saying a thing about insurance, which is amazing and very brave. And then I started to say, like, like, how, like, what is this thing? Like, you know, why is this campaign centered around the psychologists and these people kind of, you know, my age that are like just acting like their parents and what the heck does that have to do with getting them to move over to the Progressive for their insurance? And of course, you know, that I like dove in and like really thought through it and I’m like, oh, wait, I got it. I got it. And it’s when you’re at that age, you know, that is when you’ve got to be the most high value customer for an insurance company because, you know, you’re in your forties, maybe early fifties.

Katie Flynn: Yeah.

Pete VonDerLinn: You’ve just accumulated stuff. At that point, you’ve got a house, you’ve got two or three cars. Maybe you have a boat, maybe you got a cottage. Like that’s just the time of life where you have a lot of stuff that you have to ensure. It’s also at the time of life where you’re catching yourself saying things to your kids when you’re pissed off of them. Like, oh my God, that’s what my dad used to say. And like back in your mind, you’re like, but I’m not my parents. I’m not, I’m not, I’m not that old. But in the back of your mind, that is that there’s that little voice on your kind of R or your kids are saying, dad, you’re going to wear that to the game. Like seriously, you know, like you’re starting to do stuff. So I think the brilliance of that campaign is it makes the audience at that super high value customer audience say they, they really know me. They know where I am in my life, that little voice in the back of my head that I don’t talk to anyone about, but I know is there. And that’s really where all the best insights lie.

Katie Flynn: Yeah.

Pete VonDerLinn: And they nail it. And then the execution of it is so entertaining and spot on. Right. And really like finding things in those spots that you’ve like seen yourself do, you know, like the, the scene where like the guy doesn’t want to like throw the thing out, you know, he’s like, Oh, I can use this old piece of lumber. Like I’m so guilty. Yeah. Like they just nailed it all the way through.

Katie Flynn: Everybody’s got like a huge tote bin full of just old cords that don’t work for anything.

Pete VonDerLinn: Which is what my dad did. Right.

Katie Flynn: And I’m like, damn it. They totally know. I know. I always made fun of my husband because one of the first ones is, you know, he’s up at like in an attic, a finished attic space being like, it really was a lot of work. And whenever my husband does a home renovation project, like he has to tell me every single step. And I’m like, I love you, but I don’t care. I simply do not care. But I think also the use of humor for something that’s to your point, a little, a little more dry and boring, right. Insurance is not some more, someplace that’s been accused of being wildly entertaining. And yet insurance is a place where advertisers do a really good job of finding those insights and making entertainment.

Pete VonDerLinn: Yeah. It has kind of become the darling category. Right. So, you know, kudos to the state farms and, you know, all state mayhem, you know, is also just brilliant angle. So, and you see how long those campaigns endure, right? So if you do the work to find that insight, and sometimes it can take quite some time. Once you got it, then you got it. Then you have something you can build campaigns off of. And, you know, I think they’re on their second or third iteration now of the Dr. Rick stuff based all on the same insight, but they can just iterate off it so easily. And they’ve done, you know, extensions, like there’s like a self-help book from Dr. Rick. That’s like, it just builds in a way where that investment pays for itself with it gets a little bit easier to just execute.

Katie Flynn: Yes. Now on the, is it an insurance company also that does, you’ve got ants in your house?

Pete VonDerLinn: Yes. That is also progressive.

Katie Flynn: It’s also progressive. Yes. Because that I love. Although in my situation, it’s like, I go to my parents and I’m like, every single thing in this refrigerator is expired. I don’t know why you need 45 Italian dressings, but they are, they’re just so relatable. And I remember when you were, you know, first joining and talking to me about insights in general, you were like, they’re just these little things that make you go, that’s so true. Or like, I’ve experienced that. And oftentimes they’re the simplest of things, but they have such staying power in your brain.

Pete VonDerLinn: You’re slouching Ted. Like we’ve all heard that.

Katie Flynn: Yes.

Pete VonDerLinn: An ant or.

Katie Flynn: Yeah. Did you get my Facebook request? I don’t know. I’m going to have to look. I love it. I love it.

Pete VonDerLinn: And what we’re doing is also the ROI of it. Right. Because if you, if you hit on that thing that really sits in the heart and mind and then you execute it well, it becomes part of culture and you start advertising for the brand by just having dialogue at cocktail parties, right? You know, or sharing it, right? It’s like, that’s the power of hitting on that, that kind of insight.

Katie Flynn: That brand awareness is you can’t really put a, put a number on that.

Pete VonDerLinn: And there is no number, right? It’s all earned impressions. That’s the beauty of it.

Katie Flynn: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Now on the like, you know, greatest of all time, right? If we were going to carve one into stone at Mount Rushmore for insight driven campaigns, is there one that comes to mind?

Pete VonDerLinn: Mount Rushmore of insights. I like that. Um, yeah, I would go with Dove, um, the real beauty campaign. Um, I don’t think there’s, there’s one better because you have to, well, one, it, it, it doubled the brand. Dove was a $2 billion brand that went to $4 billion on the strength of that insight and that campaign, but this idea around how women were, uh, perceiving themselves based on how they’re portrayed in advertising mainly and in media, they took on their own industry, right? So I mean, how courageous is that? And then the way they, they executed it had a very, you know, meaningful effect, you know, not just in sales, but in, in how women felt about themselves. Right. So how does it get any better?

Katie Flynn: Right. Yeah. Then, then that talk about lasting power. I mean, you see those examples even now still in webinars and whatnot. And that’s from what, 15 years ago or so?

Pete VonDerLinn: Literally like a business school case study kind of thing. And they’re still iterating off of it. I think the original campaign might’ve been 15 years old, something like that.

Katie Flynn: Yeah.

Pete VonDerLinn: Um, and they’re still iterating off of it, which again, just shows if you have that powerful insight, uh, it sort of feeds you the ideas and you just execute it out and if it’s resonant, if it’s really human and truly resonant, there’s never really going to be a time that your audience says, I’m not connecting with that because it’s so deep in our DNA.

Katie Flynn: Right. Well, and to that point, right? Like we’re talking about how effective work is if you can find the insight, but finding of the insight is no small task. I think it’s something that agencies brands, you know, sometimes that’s like catching lightning in a bottle. Um, but you know, there are repeatable ways to, to look for these types of things. So when you’re looking for an insight, how do you go about that?

Pete VonDerLinn: Well, uh, I still love the old school focus group. Like we mentioned with top flight, I just, there’s something about just seeing your audience right there and just kind of listening to them have dialogue and finding that little thing. Uh, sometimes it’s as simple as like desk research, you know, like sometimes it’s as simple as finding a fact and working back from that. I mean, it starts with a hypothesis too. And when the fun thing with an insight is like, you’re kind of like this scientist. You’re like, I just kind of feel like this might be a thing to explore. So I’ll give you an example of one that I loved and it’s bizarre, but it worked. And it was for the, the truth unfiltered campaign for the anti-smoking campaign.

Katie Flynn: Okay.

Pete VonDerLinn: So this is when vaping started to become a thing and teen smoking was on the rise. So the brief was like, we’ve got to educate teens that like, this is not something to adopt, whether it’s vaping or cigarettes or anything else. So the team started to dig into teen, uh, behavior and media usage and that kind of thing. And surprise, surprise, what do they find? Like teens are always on their phone and what are they doing on their phone? They’re, they’re watching like videos and just, you know, content. And what’s the content that they found? Cat videos.

Katie Flynn: Yeah.

Pete VonDerLinn: They were watching a lot of cat videos. Sure. So then they find another fact, which is secondhand smoke was a leading killer of cats, cats that were at home of smokers were dying earlier because of inhaling secondhand smoke.

Katie Flynn: That’s horrendous.

Pete VonDerLinn: So they put this, this logic train together that if smoking is killing cats and if cats are dying, there will be no cat videos. And if cat videos are not on the internet, then you’re not going to want to go on your phone and what are you going to do?

Katie Flynn: Yeah.

Pete VonDerLinn: And it’s crazy, right?

Katie Flynn: No, it’s kind of brilliant.

Pete VonDerLinn: But it, it worked like the numbers actually went in the direction that they wanted them in teens being like, wait a minute. You can’t kill the cats. I love these cat videos. So, you know, sometimes just finding that, that little factoid and just kind of going a little deeper and a little deeper and asking, why is that? Okay. Then why is that? But then why is that? And then it leads you to a thing that’s a behavior trigger that the audience doesn’t want to give up and then you can kind of push against that. And so there’s, there can be this like fact finding and then social experiments too are fun.

Katie Flynn: Mm-hmm.

Pete VonDerLinn: So an example of that that I love is Prudential wanted to get into retirement, investing for people and they were, they were known more for like life insurance. So they dug into how are we going to get people to think of us when we’re saying start putting away for 40 years from now for your retirement.

Katie Flynn: Mm-hmm.

Pete VonDerLinn: And they ran a social experiment and they actually did it with children. And they did it with children because they wanted to find the like intrinsic thing about a human being, about whether they are wired to save money or not.

Katie Flynn: Sure.

Pete VonDerLinn: And the experiment that they ran was they brought kids in a room or it was actually one kid at a time and they had a, you know, camera on the kid and they put a marshmallow in front of the kid. And they simply said, if you can last five minutes and not eat that marshmallow, we’ll give you two marshmallows.

Katie Flynn: Mm-hmm.

Pete VonDerLinn: And then they left the room. Camera’s rolling. And these kids are just looking at this marshmallow that’s like six inches from their nose.

Katie Flynn: What do I do?

Pete VonDerLinn: And they’re just tortured.

Katie Flynn: Yeah.

Pete VonDerLinn: And they’re just, you know, they’re like trying not to look at it and then they’re picking it up and they’re putting it down. And they, but they learned from this was 80% or more of the kids were just like, screw this, I’m having the marshmallow.

Katie Flynn: Yep.

Pete VonDerLinn: It’s like as human beings, we’re just intrinsically wired for immediate gratification.

Katie Flynn: A little dopamine hit.

Pete VonDerLinn: Right. So if we get that paycheck, we want to go buy something, right? We don’t want to say, Hey, I’m going to take 15% of that amount of put it away. And then, you know, when I’m 70 years old, one day, I will use that money. We’re just not wired that way. So they actually created a campaign where it was, they actually, from the execution was around like social experiments. They hired a psychologist and he would became the spokesperson and it was just really educating this, this kind of inner way that we operate. And like, you’ve got to sort of push against that. And if you push against that, here’s the value, but understand that like as potential, we get that, you know, you got to get the little dopamine hit too. That we’re trying to be very human about it, but in a very weirdly rational way. But it came from a very different place than other financial firms who are just kind of doing the tropes of the, of the cat.

Katie Flynn: I love that. And, you know, talk about watching cat videos. People love watching funny videos with kids too. So those kinds of things are, you know, so fun in terms of engagement.

Pete VonDerLinn: The video itself was fat. It’s probably somewhere out there on the internet, but it’s, it was hilarious to watch, like their inability to control themselves.

Katie Flynn: I bet. I think I had told you this, but at one point there was a TikTok trend going on where parents would do that with M&Ms and say like, you know, don’t eat these yet. I got to go up and get something upstairs. And so I wonder if it coincided with the timing a little bit, but it was hilarious to watch. It’s just, they just don’t have it.

Pete VonDerLinn: Was it like at least 80% of them were just eight?

Katie Flynn: Oh yeah. Yeah. And it was the picking up, putting down, picking up, putting down. Like you can see that inner fight. It’s so, it just, yeah, it’s hilarious. But I think that makes a ton of sense for them to, you know, feed into human nature a little bit instead of talking about like, you know, retirement is important. We all know that. It doesn’t mean that we’re going to change our behaviors.

Pete VonDerLinn: I mean, the biggest waste of an ad spend is telling the audience something they already know.

Katie Flynn: Sure.

Pete VonDerLinn: Right.

Katie Flynn: Yeah.

Pete VonDerLinn: That happens often when there isn’t an insight there.

Katie Flynn: Is there anything else that you wanted to hit on that you haven’t had a chance to?

Pete VonDerLinn: No, that was, that was like, those were most of my questions. Did you have anything that you wanted to hit me with?

Katie Flynn: No, I think this has been a wonderful conversation. I think that it’ll be really helpful for people when they’re listening in, thinking about insight driven campaigns. And I appreciate you coming on.

Pete VonDerLinn: Thanks for having me.